Ollie Watkins

[Steve67]

That's going to be the strategy now, you'd think. Fatten up the young calves, so to speak, then sell them, which helps hugely with keeping us on the right side of FFP. If a couple of them are good enough to get into the first team squad, that's a bonus.

I suspect we'd ask for a percentage of onward transfer sales too. 

[ChicagoLion]

There is a dearth of centre forwards, it makes the few that can play at the top level rare and valuable commodities.
We don’t know for certain if Archer can, maybe they have seen enough to decide he ain’t good enough for the PL but I seriously doubt that is the case.

[pauliewalnuts]

There is a dearth of centre forwards, it makes the few that can play at the top level rare and valuable commodities.
We don’t know for certain if Archer can, maybe they have seen enough to decide he ain’t good enough for the PL but I seriously doubt that is the case.

Maybe they don't want to take the risk.

Also look at it from the player's point of view, he's going to want to be playing regular games. If it was hard for him to get them with us in previous years, it is going to get even harder.

I struggle a bit when i read (not referring to you here) people talk about these young players as if our role as a club is to bring them through.

It isn't. It is to have as much success on the pitch as we can, and starting this summer, that's going to involve being significantly more unsentimental with players than we have in the past - whether it be current first team players, or youth products, if we raise the quality bar, it is inevitable that more of them have to be moved on, or have to get used to playing less football.

[ChicagoLion]

There is a dearth of centre forwards, it makes the few that can play at the top level rare and valuable commodities.
We don’t know for certain if Archer can, maybe they have seen enough to decide he ain’t good enough for the PL but I seriously doubt that is the case.

Maybe they don't want to take the risk.

Also look at it from the player's point of view, he's going to want to be playing regular games. If it was hard for him to get them with us in previous years, it is going to get even harder.

I struggle a bit when i read (not referring to you here) people talk about these young players as if our role as a club is to bring them through.

It isn't. It is to have as much success on the pitch as we can, and starting this summer, that's going to involve being significantly more unsentimental with players than we have in the past - whether it be current first team players, or youth products, if we raise the quality bar, it is inevitable that more of them have to be moved on, or have to get used to playing less football.

I agree , it’s difficult to adjust mentally to seeing our player development as farming and not as a potential route to the first team.
I also have this fear that we might let go a player that we come to regret.
Archer is a natural finisher and Watkins isn’t, however the question with Archer is if the rest of his game is up to it.

[Risso]

There is a dearth of centre forwards, it makes the few that can play at the top level rare and valuable commodities.
We don’t know for certain if Archer can, maybe they have seen enough to decide he ain’t good enough for the PL but I seriously doubt that is the case.

Maybe they don't want to take the risk.

Also look at it from the player's point of view, he's going to want to be playing regular games. If it was hard for him to get them with us in previous years, it is going to get even harder.

I struggle a bit when i read (not referring to you here) people talk about these young players as if our role as a club is to bring them through.

It isn't. It is to have as much success on the pitch as we can, and starting this summer, that's going to involve being significantly more unsentimental with players than we have in the past - whether it be current first team players, or youth products, if we raise the quality bar, it is inevitable that more of them have to be moved on, or have to get used to playing less football.

I think another part of the equation though is the amount of money you can save if you do bring through a young player who is good enough. So sure, we could sell Archer for £20m and that's decent profit straight to the bottom line. But if he does turn out to be good enough, that could save you a £60m fee and £100K a week in wages in the medium term. I just think he's shown enough to be worth a squad place.

Even if we buy say, 4 really top notch players in the summer, I can see us getting shut of the likes of Coutinho, Bailey, Chambers and Dendoncker. That would be basically be one in, one out, which still leaves us short of squad players. Plenty of room for somebody like Archer to be in the squad, at least for 6 months to give him time with Emery and his team, something he hasn't really had yet.

[Drummond]

Liverpool did the right thing with Brewster, loaned him to where he'd do well, then sold him for good money when he did.

I wonder if Archer is similar, or whether he's going higher....

[eamonn]

Brewster was a load of baloney.

[pauliewalnuts]

There is a dearth of centre forwards, it makes the few that can play at the top level rare and valuable commodities.
We don’t know for certain if Archer can, maybe they have seen enough to decide he ain’t good enough for the PL but I seriously doubt that is the case.

Maybe they don't want to take the risk.

Also look at it from the player's point of view, he's going to want to be playing regular games. If it was hard for him to get them with us in previous years, it is going to get even harder.

I struggle a bit when i read (not referring to you here) people talk about these young players as if our role as a club is to bring them through.

It isn't. It is to have as much success on the pitch as we can, and starting this summer, that's going to involve being significantly more unsentimental with players than we have in the past - whether it be current first team players, or youth products, if we raise the quality bar, it is inevitable that more of them have to be moved on, or have to get used to playing less football.

I think another part of the equation though is the amount of money you can save if you do bring through a young player who is good enough. So sure, we could sell Archer for £20m and that's decent profit straight to the bottom line. But if he does turn out to be good enough, that could save you a £60m fee and £100K a week in wages in the medium term. I just think he's shown enough to be worth a squad place.

Even if we buy say, 4 really top notch players in the summer, I can see us getting shut of the likes of Coutinho, Bailey, Chambers and Dendoncker. That would be basically be one in, one out, which still leaves us short of squad players. Plenty of room for somebody like Archer to be in the squad, at least for 6 months to give him time with Emery and his team, something he hasn't really had yet.

I agree re those being the ones to get shot of.

I don't know if Archer has done enough to warrant a place, he's produced in the Championship, but then again, so did Chuba Akpom this season.

I don't have a huge problem if he stays, but again, it depends on the context of who else we have as an option.

[Smithy]

Liverpool did the right thing with Brewster, blamed him to where he'd do well, then sold him for good money when he did.

I wonder if Archer is similar, or whether he's going higher....

There's always a risk he'll be another Brewster, but I think it's unlikely.  Brewster had one good six-month loan at Swansea, in a side that clearly suited him and the way he plays. Archer has done it during two different loans in the Championship, at two clubs with different playing styles, and with different levels of competitiveness. I think that speaks quite highly of his potential.  It's not like he struggled in a struggling team, and only performed when he could be a flat-track bully.

The concern - as it is for all of our young players - is that the better the team performs on the pitch, the harder it will be for them to break through, and for us to give them the pitch-time they need to develop into fully rounded experienced premier league players.  A player like Jacob Ramsey timed his arrival in the team perfectly. A bit of lower league experience, then into a bottom half squad, without huge amounts of quality, and an opportunity to play without being dropped off the back of one bad performance.  Would he have had that chance if we'd been a side pushing for Europe? Probably not. He certainly wouldn't have played as many games as a 19/20 year old if he'd come through two years later.

It might be that none of our recent youth products are capable of becoming regulars for a team chasing the top 6 or top 4. I really hope I'm wrong on that. But honestly, being excited by the possibility that they COULD, is a big part of being a fan of the club.  What happens on the pitch will always come first, but the possibility of what is being developed by the club can certainly help when the 'on the pitch stuff' is not going too well.

[Risso]

There is a dearth of centre forwards, it makes the few that can play at the top level rare and valuable commodities.
We don’t know for certain if Archer can, maybe they have seen enough to decide he ain’t good enough for the PL but I seriously doubt that is the case.

Maybe they don't want to take the risk.

Also look at it from the player's point of view, he's going to want to be playing regular games. If it was hard for him to get them with us in previous years, it is going to get even harder.

I struggle a bit when i read (not referring to you here) people talk about these young players as if our role as a club is to bring them through.

It isn't. It is to have as much success on the pitch as we can, and starting this summer, that's going to involve being significantly more unsentimental with players than we have in the past - whether it be current first team players, or youth products, if we raise the quality bar, it is inevitable that more of them have to be moved on, or have to get used to playing less football.

I think another part of the equation though is the amount of money you can save if you do bring through a young player who is good enough. So sure, we could sell Archer for £20m and that's decent profit straight to the bottom line. But if he does turn out to be good enough, that could save you a £60m fee and £100K a week in wages in the medium term. I just think he's shown enough to be worth a squad place.

Even if we buy say, 4 really top notch players in the summer, I can see us getting shut of the likes of Coutinho, Bailey, Chambers and Dendoncker. That would be basically be one in, one out, which still leaves us short of squad players. Plenty of room for somebody like Archer to be in the squad, at least for 6 months to give him time with Emery and his team, something he hasn't really had yet.

I agree re those being the ones to get shot of.

I don't know if Archer has done enough to warrant a place, he's produced in the Championship, but then again, so did Chuba Akpom this season.

I don't have a huge problem if he stays, but again, it depends on the context of who else we have as an option.

Akpom's 27 though, and this is his first good season.

Unless we're saying that our youth players are never going to get a chance and are purely there to be developed and sold, then what more could Archer do to be given a chance? In 19 games he scored 11 goals and provided 6 assists for a big Championship club at the top end of the table. He appears to have lots of very good attributes, eg an eye for goal, he's quick, has a decent amount of skill and makes good decisions.

Obviously I'm not going to complain if we spend £150m on new forwards and he doesn't get a sniff, but most of our transfer windows since we've been back in the PL have been slightly disappointing for one reason or another, and I'm too old and cynical to believe that this is going to be hugely different.

[OCD]

Just took a look at West Ham's run of opponents in the Conference League...

Group Stage -
Viborg
FCSB
Silkeborg
Anderlecht

Knock-Out rounds -
Larnaca
Gent (quarter-final)
Alkmaar (semi-final)
Fiorentina (final)

Of their group opponents, I only know Anderlecht. When you've got 6 fixtures against teams you've never heard of, surely you can keep a strong core of your team and then blood kids that you feel offer the most promise (i.e. Archer, A-Ram and maybe Iroegbunam).

Then when you've got a bench of 9 (and you can actually name 8 outfield substitutes), and use 5 of them, then it's going to be easier for those players to start becoming a part of the first team picture.

That doesn't stop you from going out and buying top, proven quality players at their peak.

[Risso]

I'd also rather have Archer in the squad than Duran, to be brutally honest. The latter needs a loan out for next season.

[Drummond]

Liverpool did the right thing with Brewster, blamed him to where he'd do well, then sold him for good money when he did.

I wonder if Archer is similar, or whether he's going higher....

There's always a risk he'll be another Brewster, but I think it's unlikely.  Brewster had one good six-month loan at Swansea, in a side that clearly suited him and the way he plays. Archer has done it during two different loans in the Championship, at two clubs with different playing styles, and with different levels of competitiveness. I think that speaks quite highly of his potential.  It's not like he struggled in a struggling team, and only performed when he could be a flat-track bully.

The concern - as it is for all of our young players - is that the better the team performs on the pitch, the harder it will be for them to break through, and for us to give them the pitch-time they need to develop into fully rounded experienced premier league players.  A player like Jacob Ramsey timed his arrival in the team perfectly. A bit of lower league experience, then into a bottom half squad, without huge amounts of quality, and an opportunity to play without being dropped off the back of one bad performance.  Would he have had that chance if we'd been a side pushing for Europe? Probably not. He certainly wouldn't have played as many games as a 19/20 year old if he'd come through two years later.

It might be that none of our recent youth products are capable of becoming regulars for a team chasing the top 6 or top 4. I really hope I'm wrong on that. But honestly, being excited by the possibility that they COULD, is a big part of being a fan of the club.  What happens on the pitch will always come first, but the possibility of what is being developed by the club can certainly help when the 'on the pitch stuff' is not going too well.

I know what you mean, I've got high hopes for not just him, but Aaron Ramsey, Iroegbunam, Barry, Wilson too.

I watched Archer in the play-off game, so their biggest of the season and he really didn't do it, I wonder whether that's just not being ready for the big occasion. You can counter it with the goals for us in the League Cup, but it's a worry.

If we're signing the sort of quality we think we're signing, then it becomes a lot harder for him to even get cup minutes.

[Risso]

I watched Archer in the play-off game, so their biggest of the season and he really didn't do it, I wonder whether that's just not being ready for the big occasion. You can counter it with the goals for us in the League Cup, but it's a worry.

If you're going to write players off after a less than stellar performance in a single game, then you could do similar for quite a few of our players who have had a stinker in certain games this season. Kamara at home to Leicester as a case in point, if that was the only time you'd watched him you wouldn't want him in if we got paid to take him. That would ignore how good he was in other games though, and it's the same here, the whole Boro team seemed to freeze, and using the game to single out Archer ignores the fact that they might not have got to the play offs in the first place if it wasn't for him.

[OCD]

He had very little supply in those games and it felt like he was trying to do it on his own.